Do you have a feeling for why the goalies are bailing at the last moment? (Another obligation came up? Too tired? Don't feel like playing? Flat tire? Sudden-onset fear of pucks?) I'd be curious to learn what the most common excuse is.

Some top-of-the-head ideas for solving the problem:
- Make it free for goalies UNLESS they back out at the last minute, in which case there's a nominal fee
- Add a display of the signup history to each session, so others can see who backed out. (Public visibility could discourage the practice)
- Reward reliable goalies from the past year with a "most reliable goalie" award of some sort
- Give reliable goalies early opportunities to sign up to sessions

Jeff

may be a logistical nightmare....
have each goalie create an account with a balance-can't play without a balance, charge them when they sign up and refunding the fee when they show up.. If they don't, JMS retains the fee. That way it there is some "skin" in the game...after x number of no-shows, ban the non-showing goalie from playing--since it is a premium spot to begin with!

The only other penalty that I can think of imposing aside from some sort of deposit fee is a time penalty. E.g., you last-minute-bail from a session and you can't sign up for a week.

But the more I think about that the more I think that goes against the program. Overall, we WANT goalies to sign up, not be prevented from doing so.



I'm not sure some of these would be enough of a deterrent, but these are really creative ideas. I like them. I can imagine something like this being added to a goalie's session history:

(Goalie icon) Andy Baird cancelled from Plymouth L4 with less than 24 hours to go!

Of course, the two immediate problems that stand out from this are:
1) There would need to be some sort of exoneration system as there are legitimate reasons why otherwise well-intending goalies would need to cancel at the last minute.
2) It might actually prevent skaters from signing up -- if I saw the goalie's were flakey, I may not sign up as a skater for the session.

A common solution that we've been discussing is to have some sort of deposit requirement before a goalie signs up so if they do cancel last minute, they get charged their deposit fee. The main problem with a deposit requirement is it puts another barrier for a completely new goalie to JMS to actually get in to a session. As we all know, goalies are often brought in last minute - example: somebody's friend or neighbor or whatever signs up at the site last minute so they can hop into a session for that night.

One possible solution to this is to charge them a cancellation fee, but not necessarily require the funds to be available at time of signing up for session. So if my account balance was $0, and I get charged a $5 late cancellation fee, my account balance is now -$5. The system can be tailored so that goalies cannot sign up if their account balance is less than zero. This way, last-minute-canceling goalies are literally paying for it after the fact if they want to play again.

I like abaird's suggestion:

"One possible solution to this is to charge them a cancellation fee, but not necessarily require the funds to be available at time of signing up for session. So if my account balance was $0, and I get charged a $5 late cancellation fee, my account balance is now -$5. The system can be tailored so that goalies cannot sign up if their account balance is less than zero. This way, last-minute-canceling goalies are literally paying for it after the fact if they want to play again."

The only change I would make is to have the reinstatement fee be much more, say $20-$30. Why? Because it is an important position, and negatively impacts everybody else (other skaters and goalie) when there is a no show. Granted, there can be legitimate reasons for a late bailout. However, those should be the extreme exception, rather than the rule (i.e. you shouldn't see it due to weather).

Another suggestion - I am a goalie who has been skating out. I could bring both sets of gear (a backup plan). However, it is a pain to do this. What would make it worthwhile? First, a reduced signup fee to skate out (say $10, with it going to zero should I be in net). Second, a time rule that states if a goalie is not present 15 minutes prior to the start time, the sub goalie gets the nod. If the original goalie shows up 5 minutes prior to the start, he/she is too late (I don't want to be all geared up and ready to go, only to have to change back to skating gear). Under this scenario, each skate could designate a "goalie sub" who would bring both sets of gear. I don't know if there would be an issue finding enough people to fill this role. Another issue would be proper playing level (skating out vs. goalie), but I expect the tradeoff of having two goalies in net would prevail.

I'm not opposed to charging a cancellation fee if the goalie is a no show. I prefer the option of the fee making the account balance a negative number vs. having to have a deposit in my account. Money is tight for a lot of people and I'm no exception. Even though the $15 (or whatever amount) is still 'my' money, it's not accessible. It's like having a gift card - it's 'money' but can only be spent at a certain place or on a certain thing.

Of course there are always exceptions to every situation. Emergencies, illness, accidents, weather/traffic delays... The monetary issue in those situations can be resolved between Barb and the goalie. Any rule or policy regarding late goalie cancellation would apply to those who just don't want to play, or get a better offer somewhere else, or have some other lame reason for not showing up.

I think a "no call, no show" should be treated much the same as at a job. You should be penalized. We all have the ability to use the telephone and get in touch with either the captain or Barb if we have a legitimate emergency. Otherwise, it's on us goalies to find a replacement to play for us, or show up if you can't. I am completely against being charged a fee to sign up. If someone bails without getting a replacement or talking to Barb, I could see charging a fee of sorts (afterwards). But this fee will NOT combat the frustration skaters will face if only one goalie comes. In Washington state where ice time is limited, everyone forks out an extra 1$. That 20$ total is split and 10$ is given to each goalie. This is basically an additional incentive program that tends to motivate them further. The reality is that we all need to honor our commitments. When we don't, it affects everyone. One other thought that occurs.....We should have all goalies list their contact info and the levels they are comfortable playing on a page on this site. This way, every goalie has the means to find a replacement if a real emergency occurs. If one is found, call Barb, and let her know. If you don't find one, still let her know!

The idea of skaters who play goalie too bringing both sets of equipment could be nice. However, it might be difficult to bog down the system with people who are constantly in limbo as to their position for the night. Personally, I'm indifferent as to whether I skate or play goalie. However, bringing both sets of equipment and having to find out when I arrive if I have to switch could be frustrating. If there are to be any "insurance policy" skaters, they should be anonymous and Barb should roster them but keep the info confidential. Otherwise, if goalies know there's an "insurance policy" on the bench, they may no show anyway. The "insurance policy" players should be like plainclothes air martials. Nobody should need to know if they are there to do anything specific, but they can spring into action if needed. There absolutely must be an incentive for anyone who lugs both sets of equipment to a skate. It's tedious and annoying. It's the main reason I quit skating with another organization on friday and saturday nights. I was always in limbo as to whether I'd be goalie or skater for the evening. Sometimes I'd have all the pads on and another goalie would show! This wasted my time and frustrated me. So if an "insurance policy" skater/goalie is rostered, keep it anonymous....or at least only tell the captain.

I like Haakan's solution, but I think a more sizeable sum... say $1000 a session? That's only 45 dollars per person, and it would make me feel like George Baily from "It's a Wonderful Life" every time I come to the rink!!!!

Andy - I think you've got a pretty good grasp on what needs to be done. The idea of highlighting flaky behavior on the face of the page will work. It may not completely alleviate the problem, but in my experience, keeping everyone abreast of those problems ensures that everyone is involved in the disciplinary system. If it helps players rib a flaky goalie in the locker room, the goalie will have to face the people he/she is letting down, and it's not top-down finger wagging. When you combine that with a fee, which is imposed AFTERWARDS (not upfront), you really have an all-encompassing disciplinary approach. The only thing missing is some positive reinforcement! MY $1000!!! No, but, it might be fun to come up with some rewards for people (not just goalies) that are really helping to advance JMS through their attendance. That is more fun to discuss! I'd like to hear what people have to say about that!!!

In summary:

1. Highly visible alert for flakiness (the more visible, the better)
2. Fee (I would suggest $15, since that's what others are paying)
3. Positive reinforcement (non-monetary/for everyone)

This is insight from someone who has organized a lot of groups, and has some experience with what works.

Sincerely,

-Dan Ginter

I hope that simply discussing the problem makes any changes to the system moot.

Goaltenders receive special treatment due to (likely) increased costs of equipment and a perceived (and maybe actual) supply/demand issue.

I believe JMS is best served if

1) The goaltender slots are filled early (allowing skaters to feel good about signing).
2) The goaltenders actually show.

The negative cost system is a good one other than it may have the unintended consequence of reducing the Goaltender pool. "I wanted a slot, something came up, now I owe 5 (or whatever), now I dig my heels in the sand and don't participate". Not a rational decision, but we are not always rational creatures. :roll:

Possibly a demerit system could be automated. The website would track the goaltenders and assign them a "risk" rating. If the goaltender has a history of dropping sessions then simply "delay" any early sign ups by that individual. This would allow Goaltenders who show to get a leg up on the few who can't always make their commitments. After an appropriate delay (no first, second day?) the challenged Goaltender would get the nod (as it fills a spot that otherwise would be empty).

After a number of commitments made the Goaltender would work off the demerits and be allowed to sign up in the first few? days again.

Not perfect (but what is?).

Hopefully the Goaltenders get the message and the problem is reduced without any action being necessary (at least for a time).

I was thinking maybe it would be cool if the website had some sort of title-achievement system for games played. You could add demerits for people who skip out. It could be something like the ebay system of rating sellers/buyers. You wouldn't, of course, allow players to rate each other, but you could make it simple to see how reliable a person is by their title, and the number of demerits/merits they have. Just a thought!!

I'd love to think that, too, but of course, last night at the Level 3 Fogerty one of the goalie's no-showed, and we had to play with a board. The really frustrating part is there was a goalie sitting on the waitlist ALL day long who would have taken the spot if the no-show goalie had simply logged in to cancel his position.


True - but there are always extenuating circumstances, and an email to Barb or the captain could go a long way to getting the fee reversed (for the situations that truly deserve it).
While demand is always in the favor of goalies, the one unique thing JMS does offer for goalies is a whole organized treasure trove of places to play, for free, all over the metro area. We have a higher goalie:player ratio than 1:11.5 which means we do have excess here.


You can find that list here already: http://www.jmshockey.com/hockey-general ... -t188.html

I had no idea there was a page with all goalie contact info. But that just makes goalies not finding a sub that much more reprehensible. There's a ton of people listed on there so the odds of not finding a sub should be very low.

Andy,

Sorry to hear Fogerty got stiffed (good skate)

No doubt a financial penalty for failure to show will be effective in curbing no-shows and facilitate timely communication with organizers....

I would suggest if it is done then a deposit be taken in advance... It is more likely to motivate someone to show if they are going to lose something they have than if they possibly have to pay in the future. The next session would possibly require a payment, so maybe there is little difference except for the first time this occurs.

I would implement a similar system as the skaters (no refund within x hours unless a sub can be made available). Not sure I would want to make exceptions if I were Barb...The point would be to spend less time managing the situation, not more.

An automated contact to the Goaltenders x hours in advance may help a bit to keep the "I forgot" issues to a minimum as well. Many Goalies may forget in a weeks time (too many strikes to the noggin can be detrimental ya know)...

Easy! Require skaters to backcheck when they play! :lol:

Honestly though, this stuff happens all over. Penalizing for a no-show when you haven't charged them anything in the first place seems a bit silly to me. Also, putting their "cancel" stats on the face page could have the adverse effect of deterring skaters...which gets into a runaway situation like previously mentioned.

The only solution that I see that is viable is to have 3 goalies per session. Not the greatest, but it would address the concern without penalizing or embarassing anyone.

"I like Haakan's solution, but I think a more sizeable sum... say $1000 a session? That's only 45 dollars per person, and it would make me feel like George Baily from "It's a Wonderful Life" every time I come to the rink!!!!"

While I could use the $1,000 per session, I don't want to jeapordize my amature status! :P

I vote for the financial penalty. $15 when you sign up with JMS. If you cancel 24 hours or less before the skate or don't show up, the $15 is forfeited. If you cancel with more than 24 hours left, no penalty. I know that many of the goalies keep an eye open for spots that get vacated. If you don't sign up on Sunday, sometimes you don't get a net.

And No whining about losing the $15. No exceptions or refunds if you cancel less than 24 hours in advance. As said before, Barb doesn't need to spend even more time listening to people's pleas as to why they couldn't make it to the session. We're all adults here. Lets be responsible for our decisions.

As an option,
The system keeps track of last minute cancelations (within 48 hours) for each goalie over the past 10 or 20 games. So long as it stays above a threshold, say 80%, there is no impact of having a cancelation. If it drops below, then they suffer a small penalty (maybe a one day delay in their ability to sign up). When the cancelation percentage rises above the threshold (they become reliable) then the penalty goes away. This rewards reliable goalies and encourages only canceling when necessary. No shows would count as a last minute cancel for the current and past 3-5 games played. I would have the last minute cancel penalty apply regardless if the net is filled, and the no-show penalty only if the goalie did not contact JMS ahead of time. Then if there is a special case, JMS (presumably Barb) could tweak as necessary. I would say that it should be only for the recent past as to allow old sins to go away and to not allow someone who years ago was rock solid impunity to do as they wish since even if they do skip it won’t affect them anyways.
Just my two cents.

You should just call me. I really want to play, but I do find it difficult to get in on a game that is anywhere near home. Iplay open hockey all over the place. Im goin to champlin tonight for gods sake. I would really like to be notified of goalie cancellation at all levels. I can almost always fill in. I have wanted to sign upfor numerous skates but am always a day late. Please think of me when these things happen. Thank you.




Timmy

Timmy - Make sure you post your contact information and the levels you can/will play on the "Goalie Finder" thread. http://www.jmshockey.com/hockey-general-f13/goalie-finder-t188.html That will make it easier for people to get a hold of you if they need someone to step in. Sometimes the skaters will take it upon themselves to contact goalies to fill open nets (because it's no fun playing against a board) so make sure you're accessible.

Sorry to say I was not aware of this happening. Barb has the solution already inplace for this trouble. There is a waiting list when people sign up. This is for the skaters and goalies. If you are available for that night and want to play sign up and get on the waiting list for the goalie. This way Barb can send out the notification and call you to say you are the man for the night. As goalies who want to play we can fix this.

The goalie finder thread is 5 pages long.....

Why can't a "goalie link" be placed on the home page that basically goes to a locked thread that lists all the goalies names and contact information?

It basically comes down to holding people accountable......If you sign up tp play net, it is expected that you show up to play. Don't sign up to play just to grab a spot so you have a spot. Be an adult and make good on your comittment, especially because the ice time is free for goalies (free ice time for goalies doesn't fly in any organized league that I know of)!

Also, those that don't show or find a replacement need to be held accountable for their actions in some way shape or form.........

I play goalie and am waiting to hear back on what level I am going to be allowed to play at.....