@Jeff Larson. I've thought about this, but it does severely limit our attraction for new goalies. Frankly, a goalie--who is used to playing for free ANYWHERE--isn't likely to plonk down cash to start playing at JMS. We want to keep the barriers to entry low.
I have thought about requiring a deposit not right away, but after the first no-show.

I'm not sure it's a huge hassle for a goalie to have $15-20 in their account which lasts indefinitely as long as they show up. Though I'm also not sure how often this sort of thing occurs. I've not seen it really happen at my sessions.

*shrug* I imagine this sort of thing varies a bit on a case by case basis. Sometimes things come up... There might not be much better than simply using your best judgement about giving warnings and then more punitive action (limit times per week? Eventually the boot?)

Barb would lose a lot of money doing that.

Couple ideas:

1. I like the goalie deposit idea, they play for free but if they are a no-show they lose $15.

2. If it's all online nowadays, if a goalie backs out three times they can't play for free anymore. Three strikes, you're out. Obviously this would account for letting Barb know in advance of a cancellation.

I have played mostly goalie for JMS and I may not return from an injury at BIG last Jan. I am still trying. Charging me if I cancel is OK, but that does not always resupply a game with a goalie. You are still paying for an indoor rink to play on vs playing outside. Why would you want to share equipment if you will not share water bottles? I think I have canceled once, but JMS has canceled on me twice. I was at SLP, dressed with the other goalie, waiting when Barb showed up with the news. Minnetonka also kicked JMS off the rink early once, same goalies...bad karma? TIHS happens & I went about my business. I want to restart at L1 to test my rehab, but Barb says no. What happened to the goalie pool? I never got a call to sub when I was healthy and wanting ice time, but there was none because the slots were over-booked to the same goalie(s)...probably the same goalie(s) that cancels all of the time. How much does your non-goalie equipment cost? How much was your doctor/ortho surgeon visits, MRI & physical therapy? Hockey is the greatest sport, but I need to be able to walk for the rest of my life. I always do my best to play when I sign up.

I am a goalie, and I have never not shown up for any of my games. I can tell you it sucks when the other goalie doesn't show up, it really deflates my enthusiasm to try hard, as there is a board on the other end. I think the deposit thing is a good idea. If you are really worried about chasing goalies away, the only ones that you would be chasing away, are the no show ones, and that would be a good thing. I myself have tried to get on certain sessions, only to see the same goalies already taking the spots, as well as many other spots that week. I feel some goalies are overbooking themselves, and just get tired, or bored, and know that there is no consequence to not showing up. I'm sure there are a lot of new goalies who would want to join JMS, but see that the spots are frequently taken by the same names over and over. I also suggest a feedback system that is only reflective of no shows, not actual playing ability. This can only be filled out by the mgmt of JMS, but it might shame some of these people into showing, if they know it will publicly be noted that they are not showing up. It would work just like ebay, show up, your feedback is 100%, miss your 2nd game, its now at 50%. 3 strikes within 6 months, and you are out. Its worth the effort JMS will need to put in, as not having goalies really sucks.

1. Create a strong goalie pool;
2. Reward goalies who do show up (recognition, financial);
3. Technology to notify a substitute is needed - email,twitter,phone call;
4. Allow goalies to substitute for more levels. In a substitution allow them to move up/down one level. I'd 5. Penalty - Goalies who do not use the sub notification are warned the first time, suspended the second time and asked not to come back the third time.

As a skater and part time goalie, I also do not have an issue with the prospect of having to maintain a deposit. However, I think Barb is on the right track when she posted above that a goalie deposit shouldn't be required until a particular goalie demonstrates a tendency to no-show without making other arrangements. I think that this is more than fair. From my somewhat limited experience with JMS it seems like it would never get to that point for the vast majority of goalies, but it might provide enough of an incentive for those few to at least try to find a replacement rather than bail out without warning.

Also - I'm not sure how many other JMS players both skate and play goalie, but I'm sure that there are more than a handful of us. Could the JMS website/game signup page be modified to allow a dual-hat player to sign up as a skater at a discount, with the idea that they'd subsequently be on the hook as a back-up goalie? Knock 30-50% off the price of the skate for that player with the understanding that he/she brings both sets of gear and would strap on the pads in the event of a goalie-no show. Could always get the rest of their skater funds recredited by the JMS staff after the fact if the player ended up between the pipes for the evening?

Last night's Community session would have been a great example. I was signed up as a skater, but would've been more than happy to bring the pads, just in case, rather than have to endure 45 minutes of the board (especially because I couldn't hit a corner to save my life last night).

I don't even mind playing goalie above my level if need be (ie I skate level 4 but am only a lvl 2 goalie). When faced with a last minute no-show I'm sure the rest of the skaters would rather have ANY goalie...even one that isn't up to their normal level of play.

As a goalie I would be happy to keep money in my account, in fact I currently have a $40 credit right now... I think that is a great idea and I believe that the JMS goalie "regulars" would be ok with it also.

In all fairness, there are only 2 goalies and 22 skaters so when a goalie no-shows its like the sky is falling. As a former skater I agree that shooting at a board sucks, but I have played many JMS games and I bet 75% of the time there is a skater who no-shows. I don't think that a no-show is acceptable by anyone, but all of the skaters that get their panties in a bunch need to know that they are also guilty of this behavior, if not more so. As Dave Chappelle would say, "I keeps it real"

@Robert Sicora. I DO have goalie loaner gear, and I HAVE driven long distances to give it to a willing skater. But I can't be "on call" every night--I use that time to reply to the multitude of JMS e-mails and plan schedules, etc. Also, I live in Mound, so getting to Wakota or Polar would be a pain, not to mention hard to do on inevitable short notice. Also, while a skater kitted out in goalie gear is fine for L1 or L2, the gap between untutored goalie and skater ability is significant above that level; a skater trying net for a no-show goalie in L4 or 5 would be bad.

@Eric Krafve. Whoa. Who do you feel is "duping" you, or doing a "bait and switch"? Both of those imply intention, and that is certainly not the case from JMS.
As for wanting a $5 refund for the games where a goalie doesn't show, I can only afford that by raising all prices across the board, and I'm pretty sure people don't want me to do that.

@Jarick Losey, tracking (three strikes and you're out). This is actually how I HAVE been doing it, though it hasn't been automated tracking the strikes (a big admin hassle, though worth it).
Also, to be pragmatic, a goalie may be "out," but if it's 2 hours before icetime and I get a message that he's willing to take a still-open net, of course I say yes. So the only sanction would be not being able to sign up for nets when they're immediately posted.

@Ebraheem Bo-Subait. Andy had suggested a reputation score (along with the whole "social sanctions" thing), but we agreed that low scores don't help anybody... do you think skaters would be willing to sign up for a session with a goalie who has a 50% reliability rating (two games, one no-show)? Not many. And yet the only way to get a goalie to up the reliability rating is to play games.
I agree, it's terribly frustrating. That's why I'm making the move to deal with it.

@Keith Bloodworth. I can't remember the issues you mention. It's incredibly rare that we would cancel after people are dressed for a session. As for Level 1/rehab (the personal issues), we have discussed this via e-mail and we can continue the discussion there if you still have questions about my last message to you on the subject.

@Clifford Johnson. Thanks for your positive comments from the goalie perspective. See @Ebraheem above for "social sanctions" items re: feedback. I do think social sanctions (or, bluntly, shame, as you wrote) are valuable, but we have to deploy carefully.

@Arlan Miller. Good idea, but I can't afford that.

@Daniel Stoerzinger. 1) We DO have a strong goalie pool, it's just that we need 40 or so every week--that's a lot of nets to fill. 2) Reward would have to be recognition-based, since budget/current skater prices can't afford financial. 3) Goalies can sign up for the automatic notify list for when someone cancels, just like skaters. And when a goalie does a last minute cancel--for the record, very different from getting to a rink to find the goalie doesn't show up--I DO have time to e-mail all goalies within a certain radius (usually several hundred) to try to fill. But a no-show at the rink is very much worse than a last-minute cancel. 4) I do allow goalies to sub for more than one level; most goalies have perms for two or three levels, and last-minute cancels (again, very different than no-shows) make me MUCH more likely to allow a goalie to play far out of level, just to get someone in net. 5) I have an idea for a tiered response, but permanently banning goalies just won't work--see above @Jarick. It's just not practical... I KNOW that at some point the suspended goalie will offer to take a net I'm desperately trying to fill. And of course I'll say yes--which means the banning doesn't really have teeth.

@Gregory Eide. I think we'd have a goalie revolt if we did that.

@Magnus Leslie. Intriguing. Not sure how to do the skater-goalie registration. I'd have to talk to Andy. My gut feeling is that there's an easier way to do this, but not sure what.

This does vary on a case-by-case basis. I need SOME kind of automation, and that means Andy has to write some code (which also means it's not going to happen overnight).

I like the goalies' (Clifford and Magnus) comment that the sanctions will only affect the small percentage of no-show goalies. That is probably true.

I also see that the sample of goalies posting here don't seem to mind the idea of a deposit, particularly if it's not introductory but instead comes after the first no-show.
My idea for the deposit (this is for guys like you, Krafve) is that it will NOT go to JMS but will IMMEDIATELY be payable to all skaters who had to play without a goalie. The goalie deposit will be a multiple of skater numbers (ie, $22 or the less realistic $44). If the goalie doesn't show, every skater gets a $1 credit on account.
But, hmmm... that means the first-time no-show goalie is in the hole a whopping $44 before s/he can sign up again--$22 for the first game and then $22 for deposit in anticipation of future no-shows.
Yeah, I don't see goalies (unaccustomed to paying at all) willing to do that. And to be honest, if the goalie who is not allowed to play until s/he puts the $44 on account, tells me shortly before icetime that s/he is willing to take a still-open net as long as the $44 is waived, of course I'll say yes. So, frustratingly, again it has no teeth.

I think social sanctions are useful and have their place. I've been informally doing this: goalie no-shows, I e-mail to ask why and then e-mail the skaters with the reason. I might formalize that and let goalies know that if they no-show, I will e-mail their name, and the reason they say they weren't there, to all skaters who were signed up for that session.

I too skate out, but primarily play goalie. If JMS instituted some kind of way for those of us who do both, to see if there already was a "hybrid" player signed up, we might be inclined to go to a different game, or not bring the goalie equipment, since that is already covered. I agree with Rob, its a mindset that comes from playing the position. You always know people are counting on you, so show up already, or don't signup.

I play goalie full time and the idea of requiring a deposit on the off chance a goalie doesn't show up sounds like a great idea to me. I have no personal issues for it and goalies would be continuing to skate for free. The only time it would even affect them is if they did in fact not show up to a game. From a business perspective, I believe that it would have to be easier to require a charge like this of all the goaltenders instead of sorting through just the ones who have already no showed for one or more games. This way there would be deterrent right away for even that first game a goalie may be thinking of not attending.

I like the idea of reimbursing the skaters through a fee assessed to a goalie as well. Yes, $44 sounds like a pretty steep fee, but if you consider the expense of a goalie's equipment, this is far from being ridiculous. Besides, this isn't something that you are unfairly going to expect goalies to cover. I am a big fan of expecting personal responsibility and if a system like this were setup it not only holds the unreliable goaltender responsible it kicks back to the players who had the misfortune of not having the goalie show up on them.

Also, if there were 3 goalies scheduled for each game I would be very disappointed. It sounds great for the backup aspect of it, however sitting on the bench or rotating in and out isn't what any goalie wants to do, especially for pick up hockey sessions.

Overall, I think the important thing here is that it's completely reasonable for to hold goalies to their word and expect there to be consequences of not showing up to a game, or attempting to cover their spot. I will agree with you that goalies become accustomed to not having to pay, but with what you are proposing the only ones who would truly be affected by this (and in turn required to pay) are those would are unreliable. In the rare case of a goalie who owes due to a no show being able to cover a last minute cancel, waiving the fee or rather, cutting it in half (still incentive to cover the game without removing their being held responsible) would be appropriate.

JMS is not the only hockey establishment to have goalie woes. Ask any hockey parent whose team can barely scratch out a full roster and how fingers are crossed before every game hoping that the goalie isn’t sick or stuck in traffic. Goalies are a hot commodity and need to be treated as such. Positive feedback from the players will bring them in. Diming one out will only deter others. Thanks for playing goalies, you rock!

I like the idea of a goalie deposit, but as a skater, I wouldn't really care if I got a $1 credit in my account because of it. That might allow you to go with $10 or $15 per "miss" by the goalie, and not create the immediate "hole" after one missed session. To me, having them face the threat of payment for missing is enough, and whether I got a $1 credit or not is not important.

In general, I think you would be better of going to a positive reward system rather than a negative punishment system.

Here is another idea to add to the list that would not cost you anything to impliment and would be a positive reward to goalies who don't cancel often.

What if you tracked goalie attendance and let goalies with good attendance ratings bump goalies with poor attendance ratings? For example, let's say a goalie with an 80% attendance rating signs up for a game first. A goalie with a 99% attendance rating could bump him X days before the game. That way the good attendance goalies get the games they prefer and the skaters have a higher probability of the goalie showing up for the game. All new goalies could start with a 100% attendance rating. And you could set it up
so that only goalies with a rating below Y% could be bumped.

The one concern I have is that it might encourage good attendance goalies to wait longer to sign up for a game. I know a lot of skaters who will not sign up
for a game until they see both goalie spots full. But if you adjust the "bumping" window out enough that should take care of this.

Maybe you could try something like this with skaters too, but I recognize that skaters are different from your standpoint. They pay $15 whether or not they show up. But their failure to attend does impact the enjoyment of the other players in the game. The better the games are the better it is for the entire JMS community and long-term business profitability.

Barb, just to clarify, I didn't mean I felt 'duped or bait-and-swtitched' from JMS, I felt duped or bait-and-switched from the goalie who didn't show. The goalie gets to just cancel at the last second with no repercussions and if I cancel it costs me $15. I just want the goalies to remember that fact.

Maybe create a JMS Position: 'Goalie Director' and have that person manage the goalies/times/no-shows sanctions etc. That way at least the goalies would have to answer to someone if they bailed on a session.

A question lingering in the air: are the no-show goalies in the same group as the ice time hogs?

I think it has been said before, but this is another manifest of taking advantage. Goalie takes character.
Perhaps the issue of no showing could be dealt with at the individual level where it shows itself? Is the no-showing issue (with some exceptions due to extenuating circumstances allowed and forgiven, I am so sorry) possibly more of an indicator of complacency than an act of spite?

I do not know the numbers here specifically but I do understand that some goalies hog the ice time. This has caused me to step away at times, so I am sure the same can be said of others.

They sign up for many games at a time or are sniping the games without regard for the others. If the goalies that are sniping/ hogging are also the goalies that no-show possibly they overbook themselves to guarantee a spot that works for them (without regard for the community)?

I do recall a priority ranking being mentioned previously (or that could just be me) maybe a no show should count against your priority ranking? Now this might be very complex coding, but could also be done case by case. How about the feasibility of the goalie spots being handled like an auction – intriguing, with your goalie ranking having some weight?

I would like to echo the sentiment -- the JMS community is awesome and I appreciate the ice time.

Thanks a million Barb!

I do not see why depositing $15-$25 can be such a big problem. Yes, it is unusual, but it is not a huge amount and if a goalie shows up every time he/she will never loose them.

How about the following scheme:
1. Every goalie deposits $20.
2. Create a backup goalie place. Whoever signs for this must also come to the rink.
3. If one of the regular goalies do not showup at the scheduled time he/she will loose a deposit and the money will go to the backup goalie.

In this scheme the person signing up for backup position will take a risk to be the 3rd goalie and might not play at all. But he/she will also be rewarded financially (and emotionally) in case of a no-show. And even if there is no no-show, he/she still might be able to play if two regular goalies will agree to rotate.

I am wondering if the goalies that are not showing up are new or newer to JMS? Or are they 'old timers'? A lot of the commenters are goalies that have played JMS for many years. Sometimes the new guys are used to not being held accountable and have not "bought in" to the JMS community yet. Maybe the new comers should have to put up a deposit that will be refunded after they have succesfully shown up for x amount of sessions?

I am not against a deposit; while it may slow down the rate of no showing but I am not convinced that will absolutely solve the issue. I could get behind the feature of a back-up if you could sign up for a stand-by per game basis but not a third keeper on the bench.

There are several good ideas here but as a goalie that had to cancel a few times in the past Barb and I had some pretty rough conversations. I will not go into details but what I do know is that the goalies that are not showing hurts the fun for everyone. I was put on a JMS leave by Barb which turned out to be a good thing for me and JMS. I had a chance to see what else was out there for us goalies and let me tell you what it is pretty slim pickens my fellow netminders.

I skated Hockeyfinder.com and the skate quality was poor at best.. Let alone not very many skates. We all know what happens at open hockey.. 4 goalies rotating in and out.. we all know that sucks..

For the most part paying if you miss wont work because as stated you still end up with no goalie.

A special goalie page for netminders to chat and work out substitutions has merit and good possibly work.

In my opinion Barb did the right thing with me as she showed me how good us JMS goalies have it. So my vote is if you no show or are canceling at the last minute over and over you get your sign up removed for a given amount of time and if you keep offending then they loose there goalie status at JMS.. Maybe too harsh but if a couple of people get in trouble it would get around fast. This is a business for Barb and a great thing for us so if you sign up step up...

Apologies if this has been mentioned (I didn't take the time to read all posts) but how often does one run into a true emergency resulting in a no-show? My guess is that the vast majority of these are for non-legitimate reasons (at least in the eyes of the 20 or so people who showed up to skate). Some may also be legitimate.

No shows also happen with those who pay to skate, so I do not think the money will have any impact on things.

My take - allow one no-show, and that's it. A second one results in the goalie being out. We could perhaps have exceptions if the absence is fully explained or make it two no-shows and the third is the out. We could also say a certain number of no-shows over a certain amount of time results in the boot.

Another possibility? Publish the number of no-shows for each goalie, so the skaters are informed.

I haven't personally seen any goalie no-shows, and as a goalie I could never allow that to happen with me, knowing the impact on all of the skaters (fingers are now crossed, so that it doesn't happen soon). I also skate out, and if a goalie doesn't show, I simply don't want to be there.

This can be resolved fairly quickly an easily. I am a project manager for a living, and I work with two online based companies, so all I do is problem solve these types of issues and map out how to implement them inside the fabric of an existing website.

A three tiered system needs to be implemented.

1. $15 GOALIE CREDIT: A goalie deposit is a must, but I agree that it can be a barrier to entry, especially for those that have played goalie for free for so long.

SOLUTION: Credit each goalie account $15 to start. This costs JMS nothing as it cannot be redeemed for cash, it is only "JMS Bucks". Therefore, NO goalies need to add money to play in the beginning. Once, they miss as session, they lose their deposit and at that point they have to use their own money for a new deposit. The is FREE for JMS and effective because the goalie will be motivated not to miss and have to use their own cash. It also rewards responsible goalies because they will never have to use their own cash.

2. GOALIE COMMUNICATION - ON CALL LISTS

Problem: A goalie deposit still does not solve the problem of a no-show or last minute cancellation which their always will be.

3 SOLUTIONS: On-Call List - For each session up to 2 goalies can sign up for the on-call list. This is free, they would not have to leave a deposit. And, you basically have a backup plan if a goalie cancels last minute. Will it help every time? No. Will there always be goalies that sign up? No. But, at times there will be and they should be contacted immediately when a No Show takes place or a goalie has to cancel last minute. Its not perfect, but it helps.

Text Messaging - Text messaging lists are the best way to get the word out fast. There needs to be some type of text messaging software implemented for goalies that need a backup. Not everyone is going to be on their email at 9:00pm or has a smart phone. Everyone does get text messages and they are instant, which helps. Again, this doesn't help greatly with unplanned no-shows, but it does improve the chances of a goalie finding a backup. There is software the you can implement where a goalie can send a text message to a list (should be location based) through your website. You don't need to expose phone numbers to the public, goalies would just add them to a private part of their profile, and they become text message eligible. This software can be found by many different companies and it not expensive, but would take a bit of work and time to integrate seamlessly.

Forum - There needs to be a specific forum for goalies to communicate, if that isn't already setup it should be. That is an easy one to implement and it will help.


3. GOALIE RATING: Again, I agree here that a goalie rating could hurt player participation, but there are ways to implement it that could help.

3 SOLUTIONS: Low Rated Goalies - When a goalie receives a low rating based on no-shows, they actually have to pay for a session, it just isn't a refundable deposit anymore. Maybe the cost is $10. This way the skaters know that they goalie is committed. Also, the goalies will not want to get the rating and have to start paying, however, by paying and showing up they move their rating up and don't have to pay anymore. If they get a low rating and don't want to pay, see ya! That is how you weed out bad goalies.

Bump System - You could also implement a bump system where a goalie with a rating below XX would be susceptible to a bump from a higher rated goalie up to 48 hours before the session. Obviously, this would frustrate goalies with poor ratings, but it would reward goalies with better ratings that you want to keep happy. The "bumped" goalie would then move into the reserve position and would be notified via text message they have been bumped (both technologies explained above).

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That's it for now, Barb or Andy, feel free to contact me at my JMS Account email address if you have any questions.